指挥家巴伦博伊姆专访丨“指挥需要从钢琴作品的角度来思考舒曼的交响乐。”

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更新于:2019-02-15
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Interview with Daniel Barenboim
巴伦博伊姆:钢琴家与指挥家的双重人生

By Juergen Otten 




  • Rondo: Mr. Barenboim, can you imagine returning to your roots some day, perhaps spending all your time at the piano?

问:巴伦博伊姆先生,您能想象有一天您回归了自己的老本行,可能要把一整天时间都花在钢琴上吗?


  • Daniel Barenboim: In essence, I’m already doing that. I have reduced conducting to a minimum. You know, in addition to my home orchestras in Berlin and Chicago, I currently only conduct the Vienna Philharmonic and the Berlin Philharmonic. And I’m once again practicing the piano a great deal. Which, by the way, has become more difficult than in the past. The transition from conducting to playing piano doesn’t happen as quickly anymore.

巴伦博伊姆:实际上,我现在已经这样做了。我已经把指挥的工作量减到最少了。你知道,除了要指挥我在柏林和芝加哥创办的交响乐团,我现在只担任维也纳爱乐乐团和柏林爱乐乐团的指挥。而我一旦再次大量练习钢琴。顺便提下,比过去困难多了。从指挥到演奏钢琴的角色转换不会再那么迅速了。


  • Rondo: You have now been general music director of the Staatsoper Unter den Linden for twelve years. Have you achieved your personal goals, in particular with regard to the sound of the Staatskapelle?

问:至今,您作为柏林国家歌剧院的常任音乐总监已过了12个年头。特别是关于歌剧乐团的声音是否达到了您的要求?


  • Mr. Barenboim: Yes. Oh, yes.

巴伦博伊姆:是的。


  • Rondo: Is the recording of the four Schumann symphonies a milestone for you, or only a way-station?

问:对您而言,4首舒曼交响曲的录音是一个里程碑,还是仅仅是一个中途站?


  • Mr. Barenboim: Everything in life is a way-station. When I think about Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony, which I have been conducting almost every year since 1991, I’m seeing it; I’m hearing it.  We actually started down the path with two great cycles as part of our main repertoire—the Wagner operas and the Beethoven symphonies.

巴伦博伊姆:生活中的任何事情都是一个中途站。当我想起贝多芬《第九交响曲》——这首我从1991年开始几乎每年都要指挥的作品时,我能看到它,听到它。实际上,我们开始以两套大型交响曲形式演出,将瓦格纳的歌剧和贝多芬的交响曲作为我们曲目的一部分。

  • The Schumann idea came about as a result of a conversation in Vienna, as we presented the Beethoven cycle there; all of the piano concerti and the symphonies. The director of the music society asked me: “What do you want to do next time? Brahms?” My impression has always been to couple Brahms with, for example, Schoenberg or Schumann, and so we settled on Schumann.

演奏舒曼交响曲的想法是在维也纳的谈话中决定的,当时我们在那里巡演贝多芬的作品—,演奏他所有的钢琴协奏曲和交响曲。音乐协会的总监问我:“下一次,您会带来什么曲目?勃拉姆斯?”我一直将勃拉姆斯与勋伯格或舒曼联系在一起,所以我们决定演奏舒曼的作品。

  • That is, a contemporary who did it differently. And, then, we presented the four Schumann and the four Brahms symphonies on four nights in Vienna, as a sort of double cycle, in the combination of one-one, two-two, three-three, four-four。

这是在同时代作曲家中,做法与众不同的一位。后来,我们在维也纳历时4晚,演绎了4首舒曼的交响曲和4首勃拉姆斯的交响曲,作为类似双套作品音乐会,以舒曼第一与勃拉姆斯第一,舒曼第二与勃拉姆斯第二,舒曼第三与勃拉姆斯第三,舒曼第四与勃拉姆斯第四这样的方式结合。


  • Rondo: And what conclusion did you reach after this dissection?

问:那么,您在这番仔细研究之后得出了什么结论?


  • Mr. Barenboim: The difference between Schumann and Brahms, personally and orchestrally, is more interesting than what they have in common. Schumann is a very different world.

巴伦博伊姆:舒曼和勃拉姆斯性格和交响乐上的不同之处,比他们的共同之处更有意思。舒曼的音乐是一个完全不同的世界。


  • Rondo: But what is fundamentally different about Schumann? What makes him unique? And why does the Fourth Symphony, although composed before the Second and Third, segregate itself so clearly from the rest of the framework?

问:但舒曼根本上的不同是什么呢?是什么让他独一无二?为什么即使在第二交响曲和第三首交响曲之前创作,但第四首交响曲还是能够从其他交响曲作品中脱颖而出?


  • Mr. Barenboim: In the Fourth, we sense the spirit of Wagner more clearly than in the other symphonies.

巴伦博伊姆:在《第四交响曲》中,比其他交响曲,我们能更清楚地感受到瓦格纳的精神。



  • Rondo: But even in the Third, Tannhäuser already shines through, in the fourth movement.

问:但在第三首交响曲的第四乐章中,《唐豪瑟》(Tannhäuser)的旋律已经渗透了。


  • Mr. Barenboim: Yes, of course. And Schubert in the first movement. For me, the four symphonies are like an anthology of distinct types. I don’t know if one can cloak it in words. Somehow it’s clumsy, self-conscious, external to the main idea. Schumann’s symphonies are like a human being who doesn’t quite fit into society, who thinks differently, who dresses differently. I think what essentially separated Schumann from Brahms is this: He is, far more than Brahms, a composer at the extreme.

巴伦博伊姆:是的,当然。并且能在第一乐章听到舒伯特的旋律。对我而言,这四首交响曲就像一个囊括不同特征的选集。我不知道这是否能用语言来概括。它有些迟钝、腼腆、与主要的乐思格格不入。舒曼的交响曲家乡一个不能很好适应社会的人,他想法不同,打扮不同。我觉得能够将舒曼和勃拉姆斯从本质上区分开来的是:他远远超过勃拉姆斯,是一个极端的作曲家。


  • Rondo: Schumann, as it were, throws a curve that always surprises us.

问:可以说,我们总是惊讶于舒曼作品所带给我们的错觉。


  • Mr. Barenboim: Yes. It’s strange, but the orchestration in Schumann’s case has often suffered from the fact that the interpreters thought it had to sound like Brahms. But it’s a completely different language. What occurs to me is that the more removed we are from a time in history-the more removed we are from a particular epoch-the more we see what the people had in common, and therefore the less that differentiated them.

巴伦博伊姆:是的。这很奇怪,但舒曼交响曲中的常苦于一个事实,诠释者认为它不得不听上去像勃拉姆斯。但这完全是一种不同的语言。在我看来,我们越是跳脱出历史上的时期——我们越是跳脱出特定年代——我们就越能看到人们的共同点,因此,我们就更不能辨别他们的不同之处。

  • A further problem of the poor reputation of Schumann as a composer of symphonies is that we have not properly read the musical “diary” of this composer, in the case of Schumann that means the piano pieces. A conductor who only views Schumann’s symphonies from the orchestral perspective will only understand the works to a limited extent. One needs to think of the symphonies from the point of view of piano pieces, as with Debussy.

舒曼作为交响乐作曲家声誉不佳的更深层原因,是我们没有正确的解读作曲家的音乐“日记”,就舒曼而言,这仅仅是对钢琴作品的记录。仅仅从交响乐视角解读舒曼交响曲的指挥家,对作品理解的程度有限。指挥需要从钢琴作品的角度来思考舒曼的交响乐,就如同思考德彪西的作品一样。

  • The associations are significant. Otto Klemperer, for example, believed very strongly in-and agitated himself over-the fact that conductors have no culture and only know what they themselves conduct. Distressingly, this doesn’t mean that one can conduct Schumann’s symphonies better if one knows his piano pieces well. Nevertheless, one then has a certain head start.

其关联是很紧密的。比如,奥托·克伦佩勒(Otto Klemperer)非常相信——并且鼓舞自己相信——指挥家是没有文化的,他们只知道自己在指挥什么。可悲的是,这并不意味着一个对舒曼的钢琴作品比较了解的人,就能指挥他的交响曲。然而,这仅仅意味着他获得了某种优势。


  • Rondo: Let’s deal with the programming of the works. Although Schumann later deleted the appellations to the First and Third symphonies, that is, “Spring” and “Rheinish,” is there a certain poetic intent to be recognized? And does that really mean, in Schumann’s case, the program? Can we read it?

隆多:让我们来谈谈作品的编排。虽然舒曼后来删去了第一和第三交响曲的命名,分别是“春天”和“莱茵河”,这其中需要领略某种诗性的意图吗?在舒曼的交响曲中,这是否意味着标题?我们能揣摩它吗?


  • Mr. Barenboim: I don’t know. I believe it’s unimportant. The problem is that music is not just a collection of tones and sounds. Music aspires to far more, in the sense of what Adorno said about Beethoven’s symphonies: that they are a conception of life. The problem appears to me to be that this humanistic idea in music that we now speak of basically can’t be expressed in words. If we could do this, the music wouldn’t be necessary.

巴伦博伊姆:我不知道。我相信这并不重要。问题在于,音乐不仅仅是音调和声音的组合。音乐渴望着更多的东西,就如同阿多诺谈起贝多芬交响曲:它们是对生命的理解。这个问题在我看来,基本上我们所谈及的,音乐中的人文主义思想是无法用文字表达的。如果我们能这么做,那么音乐就显得没有必要了。

  • Whether you think of spring when you hear the B-major symphony, and I of the desert, is actually not important. The main thing is that this music affects us as humans—emotionally or rationally, in the best case both. How we describe, so to speak, the feelings is less important in the final analysis. It’s too bad that today, in our politically correct society, we always expect a message. That is not the correct disposition.Everyone must learn to actively listen.

不管你在听到B大调交响曲是想到了春天,而我想到的是沙漠,实际上,这不重要。主要的问题是,作为人类,我们受到音乐的影响——感性上和理性上,最好的情况是两者都受其影响。可以这么说,在最终的分析中,我们如何描述感觉是次要的。非常糟糕的是,当今,在我们以政治为导向的社会中,我们总是期待着一个信息。这并非合适的立场。每个人都必须学习积极地聆听。

  • One cannot sit in a chair with a glass of whiskey in hand and expect that the music will transport one into another world. The transport has to be ordered, even as it arrives, by us. And there may be conductors who achieve much by attempting to use imagery—I am not one of them.We awaken the associations, the human thoughts, considerably more if we work with musical means and in the process take subtle note of the thoughts.

你手拿一杯威士忌酒坐在椅子上,却期待音乐将把你带入另一个世界。即使达到了身临其境的感觉,它也不得不受我们的控制。或许有些指挥企图通过使用意象而获得身临其境的感觉——我不在其列。如果我们用音乐的手段,并在此过程中揣摩这些思想,我们就更能激活这些联系——人类的思想。

  • The impressions that one thereby has, do not play the main role. Take, for example, Ravel’s Boléro. One person sees a single, wonderful, upward assault in it, another experiences the fantasia of repetitiveness and this opus has even been viewed as a piece of music alluding to coitus.

拿拉威尔的《波莱罗》为例。有人在这首作品中感受到了单一、有力、向上的力量,而另一个则感受到了重复的美妙,而这首作品甚至还被认为是有性暗示的音乐作品。


  • Rondo: And the Spring Symphony?

问:那么,春天交响曲呢?


  • Mr. Barenboim: It contains a certain serenity and lightness. For me, the association is with the Humoresque, op. 20 for piano by Schumann. A similar world, a similar rhythm, similar structures are illustrated in it. And the piece is in the same key.

巴伦博伊姆:它具有某种宁静和轻盈的特点。对我而言,这与舒曼的《为钢琴而作的幽默曲》作品20号有联系。该幽默曲展现了类似的世界、类似的节奏、类似的结构。并且这首作品和该交响曲是相同调的。


  • Rondo: The rhythm in Schumann appears to play a similar, relevant role as with Beethoven. How do you see this?

问:舒曼作品中出现的节奏与贝多芬的作品中所采用的节奏有着异曲同工之处。您如何看待这个问题?


  • Barenboim: It isn’t the rhythm that plays the decisive role, it’s the proper emphasis that’s decisive. That is, where the emphasis is not placed. Basically, I believe that too frequently we attempt to solve musical problems in only one direction. In the process, everyone practices the rhythm, the sound, the intonation, the phrasing, the articulation—at least in tonal music one exerts influence on the other. Why is so much spoken today of the selection of the tempo? I do not understand this. As if tempo were an independent phenomenon. The tempo is, however, determined by the content; we don’t hear the tempo. We hear only the content. If the tempo is proper for a specific content, then it is correct.

巴伦博伊姆:这并不是起决定性作用的节奏,而恰如其分的强调是有决定性的。基本是,我认为我们往往只通过单一的方向去解决音乐的问题。在这个过程中,每个人都练习节奏,声音,音调,句法,运音法——至少在调性音乐中,这会互相影响。为什么如今最常谈论的话题是速度的选择?我不理解。就好像速度是一种独立出现的现象。但是,速度是由音乐内容决定的,我们不能听到速度。我们只能听到音乐内容。如果速度对于特定的音乐内容而言是恰当的,那它就是对的。

来源:音乐文献编译组

作者:李闻磐





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